Echoes in the Columbine Archive

I had the privilege of interviewing Frank DeAngelis twice for my upcoming book, I appreciated his honesty, perspective and time a lot. While the material explored in the book will go into far greater depth, I felt that the interviews themselves were so valuable and insightful that I wanted to share the raw conversations here as part of this research archive.

For the sake of transparency and preservation, I’ve included the raw transcripts below with only minimal edits for readability, while keeping the actual recordings private.

This is the first interview, the second will be shared at another time.

Q: I think… being a principal can entail a lot of things, but I think a lot of people are curious about as your job, like, how much interaction did you personally have with the students at Columbine, in general, like, day to day?

Frank DeAngelis: When I was principal, that was one of my top priorities, is it’s all about relationships, and I would be there early in the morning to greet the kids, I would block out so much time in my schedule every day to go spend time in classes, as a high school principal, that I loved cafeteria duty, and I got to meet with the kids, and then, of course, after school, I would go to their extracurricular, co-curricular activities, so the students and relationships was very important.

Q: Did your idea of leadership change after Columbine happened?

Frank DeAngelis: No, it did not, and that was the one thing that people brought to my attention, is they said, boy, you became a great leader. After Columbine, but I had leadership skills that I just transferred over to be the leader of Columbine after the tragedy. It was just different leadership skills, and I think back early on in my career that I was… even when I was in high school and elementary, I was in Student Senate, you know, I was… I can remember going to Catholic school and a nun asking me to pray the rosary for the school, students in school. My coaching background, as far as I coached football and baseball, and all those leadership skills helped me, and it just transferred over because it was a different type of leadership. But, you know, the important thing is keeping everyone together, and that was the thing that was so difficult to do. And that was my top priority.

Q: You became a symbol of resilience for many people. Is that something that came natural to you, or did you struggle with having that big of a role?

Frank DeAngelis: Well… I’m a person of faith. And, I was really struggling with my faith after everything that I had just witnessed, and the priest from my local parish called me down, and he said you should have died that day. But God’s got a plan, and he quoted Proverbs 16.9, he said, in his heart, a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps. Now, you were spared for a reason, now you need to go help others, rebuild the Columbine community, and then help others, and that’s why, 27 years later, I’m still reaching out, helping, that, for whatever reason that day, I could have very easily had died. And God’s got a plan, and so, I take that to heart. And just recently, I saw Father Ken, or Monsignor Ken Leone, he said, you can take some time for yourself now that you’ve done what you’re supposed to do, but… Yeah. I, I just felt that, for whatever reason, I wasn’t asked to be put in that position, but I was, and could I use it to help others? Because I remember… it was probably within 3 days after the Columbine tragedy, I received a phone call from a gentleman named Bill Bond, and he was the principal at Heath High School in Paducah, Kentucky. And their event happened on December 7th, 1997, I think, you can check that. And he said to me, you don’t even know what you need, but here’s my phone number.And I still remember thinking, after he called, I said, I hope I never have to make that phone call. Unfortunately, I’ve had to make that phone call probably close to 30 times over the past 27 years, so… There’s where I am.

Q: When you look back now, what do you think people most misunderstand about the aftermath of Columbine?

Frank DeAngelis: Oh, well… I think… You know, I say this, we did not have social media back then. The only social media we had was something called MySpace. And we’re still talking about Columbine. Just recently, on April 20th, there was a gunman in Mexico City that opened gunfire, and he made reference, I’m doing it on April 20th, you know, to show that I support the two killers from Columbine. And these people were not even born yet. And the thing that I look at is, just the social media, and back then, I think the reason that we’re still talking about Columbine was it became the 24-7 news cycle. And a lot of times, the media did not do… their job or diligence in checking what was happening, because it came out that the reason these two… what they did was wrong, but the reason they did is they were picked on and bullied, and that is the farthest thing from the truth. Now, I’m not saying, you know, that Columbine was a perfect school, but for people to hear that, there are people out there saying, well, you know, what they did was wrong, but they were defending people like me that are picked on, and the reason I can say that is one of the most disturbing things I had to do in this process over the 27 years is the two made basement tapes in the Harris household, and they videotaped, and they did this for over a year before they were carrying out their action. And they talked about why they were doing it. They talked about idolizing Adolf Hitler. They talked about causing a revolution between white and darker. They even talked about hijacking a plane and flying… not during that time did they talk about being bullied. They talked about social Darwinism. And so, again, it bothers me because people are always looking for a reason why someone does something, and sometimes there’s just pure evil. And I… I wish that psychologists, behavioral scientists, police officers could have looked at those basement tapes, but… what… and I had to testify, saying those tapes cannot be released, and they were supposed to be released, 25 years after, which would have been 2024. My biggest concern is once the media got ahold of them and they start playing them, then there are those people that are looking at that, idolizing the two killers, and these would continue to happen in, you know, in memory of those, two killers from Columbine.

Q: So you believe that should be available for, like, professionals, but not…

Frank DeAngelis: Exactly, but unfortunately, once, you know, because of the First Amendment and freedom of expression. Once they get out there and they’re playing, that just gives others that have the same mindset that they kinda… then we get what we call these copycats and things of that nature, and we just can’t have that.

Q: looking back, is there anything you wish the public had understood better when it came to the administration and the school itself, especially the media?

Frank DeAngelis: Yeah, and that’s exactly what I talked about. I wish they could have saw those tapes to talk about why they were doing what they were doing. You know, and here’s where I think I can defend my point that I’m making with you, because the media stated that they were targeting certain individuals, athletes, other individuals. But their plan was not to come into the building. They had placed two propane tanks, they carried them in their duffel bags, they were placing them in the middle of the cafeteria where there were 500 kids. When you do that, you’re not targeting, you’re gonna kill as many people as possible down there. You know, and if they were targeting certain people, they even knew where certain kids were during certain periods, they never went there. They put those bombs there. They went in the library where none of those kids would have been. Supposedly, the people they were targeting, they weren’t looking for them. They put those bombs there. They… if those… and I say this, it’s so difficult, because if those bombs would have went off, we lost 13 of my beloved people from Columbine, but it would have killed 500-600 people. And they were standing outside, waiting to kill survivors that were running out. They even had their cars wired, because they knew when the first responders were going to show up, and then there was going to cause further damage. So, that’s, you know, that’s the thing that I state when it’s out there. They were targeting certain people, and that’s the reason it happened. No, it was not. They were going to kill as many people as possible.

Q:I believe they actually said they wanted to do as much damage as possible.

Frank DeAngelis: Yeah. As a matter of fact, they made comments. These people that did these school shootings before, they didn’t know, we’re gonna make sure we do it right. You know, and they were planning this, and as a matter of fact. They had set off a bomb, a pipe bomb, about a mile away from Columbine to get the police up there, and then they actually had… they had everything timed out perfectly. When the bombs did not go off in the building, that’s when they came in the building and just started opening fire.

Q: You faced both praise and criticism in the media afterwards. How did you personally deal with that?

Frank DeAngelis: It was very difficult because, I was named in 8 lawsuits. You know, when people said, don’t take it personally, well, you do. But I also realized that the parents wanted answers, and they’re being told that you’re gonna have to file a suit to find out. And it was very difficult, and one of the most frustrating things is I had staff members, I had students saying, Mr. D, you need to go and tell them that’s not happening. Well, with pending lawsuits.

I could not even speak up. You know, and it was so difficult, because they’re saying, you know that’s not right, and because I’m being instructed by our attorneys for representing us, and representing me, that you cannot speak in case if it goes to court. And so that was very frustrating. Again, with my faith, and one of the things that helped me immensely, and… And faith is not for everybody. It really is not. And one of the things when I talked to people, as I said. We’re all gonna go through things in our life, and it’s not a competition who suffers more, but you have to find what helps you. For me, it was my faith. For me, it was exercising. For me, it was counseling.

But one of the things, one morning, I mean, literally. I would be willing to bet that there was articles in the newspapers, or radio shows, for one year, consecutively, where we heard messages about Columbine. And for a year, there was a radio show that went after me every morning, and my parents would call other people saying, so-and-so said this about so-and-so, and it was really bothering me, and one morning. I just looked in… I woke up and looked in the mirror, and I said, my judgment isn’t coming on the face of this earth.

And that helped me heal. And not that that’s for everybody, but in my heart.

I really felt that if I could have done anything to stop it that day, which I ran out after the gunman to protect girls, I would have stopped it from happening, and that’s where I had to go, because my number one mission is to bring our community back together and heal.

Q: I’ve spoken to other survivors as well, who all pointed me towards reaching out to you as well, so I know that’s a lot of people who are really grateful for what you have done for them.

Frank DeAngelis: Well, yeah, well, I appreciate that. I made a comment early on, right after I said I just joined a club in which no one wants to be a member. And unfortunately, that membership continues to grow. But this is a key point, and I’ll address it now.

You know, people say to me, gosh, you’re out there, you’re continually talking about this, and, you know, what we’re doing.

And these shootings continue to happen, but what we don’t hear about is how many have been stopped because of things we have in place that we didn’t have in place prior to Columbine. We don’t hear about that, we hear about the shootings that are occurring. But how many have been stopped? And it was… and you could do some research on this, and I think this goes back to maybe 2015, so it’s… It’s been a while, but Dewey Cornell made a comment to address this. He said, in the United States, now this was 2015, it’s changed some, but he said, in the United States, there’s over 300 homicides a day in the United States, but how many occur in schools?

You know, on that, and how often they happen. So when you look at that, even though when it does happen, it’s front, so to speak, front page or national headlines, but we don’t hear about the ones that have been stopped. And so, I am a type of person. I try to build on the positive and not dwell on the negative, because that’s what we need to do in order to come through situations like this.

Q: In some earlier interviews, you spoke very honestly about struggling emotionally and questioning whether you could continue leading the students. What helped you find that strength? I know you mentioned faith as one of them.

Frank DeAngelis: The other thing, too, was counseling. Right after it happened, as a leader, you know, those kids, Mr. Sanders, walked into my school. And they never were home, went home. And I took that, I mean, they, you know, as a leader, you’re supposed to protect your people. And there was so much guilt, and I just felt the need. I had to help, I had to help, I had to help.

And fortunately, I received a phone call from a doc. My mom worked for a chiropractor. John Fisher, and he was a Vietnam veteran, and he said, Frank, I never got the help I needed, and I’m paying for it. You know, and things of that nature. He said, if you’re gonna help others, you need to help yourself.

And that really resonated with me. And what I… what ended up happening. And I learned this, I mean, a lot of it was just trial and error, but if I walked into a group of teachers or staff members and said, you’re screwed up, you better talk to someone, they’re gonna say, no one is telling me how to feel. Because when you go through a situation, and I think something that everyone in this world could identify with was the pandemic.

And every time we felt we kind of got our life back in control, something would happen, whether it be the government saying, you know, you can’t go back, or you gotta wear a mask, or you gotta have a vaccine. And that’s where we were with Columbine, and people were saying, on that day. Here we are, and our lives were out of control, you know? So what I did, if I would have said, okay, you’re screwed up, you better talk to someone, basically what I said is, I don’t know about you, but I’m not sleeping at night.

I’m having reoccurring nightmares, past couple of days, I went to the emergency room thinking I was having a heart attack, it was anxiety, and all of a sudden. I see heads nodding.

And I said, I don’t know if this’ll help you, but I’m talking to someone, and it’s how you deliver the message. It’s very similar, saying, take care of yourself, take care of yourself, yet I’m working, you know, 24 hours a day. And they’re saying, yeah, what about you? And so, people are watching, you know, and… Character and integrity is who you are when no one’s watching, you know, or when other people are watching, and I think that’s the important thing. People are watching you. And, you know, I’ll share a story with you. Character integrity, who you are when… No one’s watching, and one of the things… I can remember, it was right after, we could not go back to Columbine because the building was a mess, but we still had about a month left of school, and I told our district we needed to wait 2 weeks, and everybody said, why 2 weeks? Because we had 13 memorial services. And I said, the last thing that I want our kids, our staff, to go is go to, you know, to a memorial service, and then try to go learn math and science. So we waited.

But we also needed a place to meet with the staff and the students to offer support during that time. And I can remember, before I went down to St. Francis Cabrini and father brought me down there, we were over at West Bowles Community Church, and there were students there and staff member, and all of a sudden, a counselor comes over to me.

And he said, your kids need to see it. I said, I am a mess. I haven’t slept in, you know, 48 hours. I haven’t eaten. He said, please come with us.

So all of a sudden, I walk in this auditorium, there had to be well over a thousand kids in there, and as I walked through the doors, they started chanting, we love you, Mr. D, we love you, Mr. D, we’re Columbine.

And I literally, because I had so much guilt, survivor’s guilt, that I turned away from them, and I am just crying uncontrollably. All of a sudden, the counselor spins me around. He said, what do you see? And I apologized profusely, and I said, I am so sorry for upsetting them. He said, no. He said, you don’t understand.

These kids didn’t know what to feel. Especially the guys, they were very stoic, they didn’t know anything, and by you crying, by you showing emotion, that you gave them permission that it was okay. And he said, there’s gonna come a time that you’re gonna be able to smile or laugh, and you’re gonna say, it’s okay to do this.

And this gentleman said to me, he said, I’ve heard you speak over the years, I’ve heard you deliver messages, but what you did today, you did not utter a word, but your message was more powerful than anything you could have spoke verbally. And that’s what was an eye-opener for me. And I use the analogy when I go out and speak to people, I said, next time you get on a plane.

And that flight attendant, he or she comes on and says, for some reason, this plane loses cabin pressure, there’s going to be a mask that drops down. Before you help that child next to you, before you help that elderly person next to you, make sure you put the mask on yourself. And that’s what I had to do. And it’s been a tough year for me,

My mom passed away within the past year. There’s… I’ve lost several students of mine in the month of April. This year, I had to go to 6 memorial service of former students, and every time I go in there, it takes me back. And so I went in, and I met with my counselor twice in April. And, you know, one of the things that he told me, it’s called Touchstone, and I can remember, there was a situation in 2021, and I’m sitting in Columbine Library.

and getting ready for a meeting for a day of service, and all of a sudden I start… whenever I get a text, you’re in my thoughts and prayers, then the media calls. I know there’s another shooting. Well, there was a shooting at a grocery store up in Boulder.

And I’m just sitting there, all of a sudden, looking at the names of my beloved 13, and I get these calls, my heart starts racing, and it took me back to April 20th, 1999, but I have a couple medals around my neck, and I started grabbing them.

It’s called Touchstone, and I… and I said, this is not April 20th, 1999, this is May 21st, and it’s things like that to teach me what to do.

And I call my counselor, and what I call is every year, it’s kind of like taking your car in for maintenance. Every year, I go in for maintenance, every weather I need it, and it just helps me. Because… like, takes me back to what Monsignor Leone said, you’ve got to help others. And if I’m gonna do that, I gotta help myself.

Q: Was there a point where you felt Columbine could begin healing?

Frank DeAngelis: I made a comment, a time to remember and a time for hope. And it was tough, because every time we took some steps forward, something would happen that… say, where did that come from? I’ll give you some examples. We had 4 students that were critically injured. Patrick Ireland. Anne-marie Hochhalter, and unfortunately, she passed last year. We had Richard Castaldo and Sean Graves.

Well, it was about… it was exactly 6 months and 2 days, so October 22nd, a police officer comes in my office, said, Mr. D, you need to go get Nathan Hallcoulter, Anne Marie’s brother. And Ann Marie was coming to school part-time, at home part-time. And I said, what’s going on? And she said, Anne Marie’s mom and Nathan’s mom took her own life. So I’m sitting in the back of the police car with Nathan, he’s saying, Mr. D, Mr. D, what’s going on? And I said, well, talk. I can remember going in that bedroom with Anne Marie. That took its impact on our community.

On February, February, it was Valentine’s Day of 2000, Nick Kunselman and Stephanie Hart, two of our students, were brutally murdered at a Subway sandwich shop. We had a young man who was in the classroom with Dave Sanders administering first aid, and unfortunately, Mr. Sanders died. And I really worried about the kids in that classroom, because they tried to keep them alive, and they couldn’t.

It was a little over a year, and one of the students that was in the classroom with Mr. Sanders took his own life, saying, I can no longer live with these images, and Mr. Sanders gasping for air. And so it seemed like every time we took some steps forward, something would happen, and that’s one of the things

That is so difficult, because there are people saying, you know, I was doing okay for 3 or 4 years, and then something happened in their life that traumatizes them. And that’s the thing, people are in different places. And what I learned is.. We could have all experienced the same things, but how we deal with it, we deal with it differently. And that was one of the toughest lessons for me as a leader, because there were some people saying, we need to meet, we need to meet, we need to talk, we need to talk.

Others telling me, as soon as we get back to doing what I was doing, that’s gonna help me heal, and then we had some people in between. And so, one of the things that I said is we need to help. And… I’ll share a couple of things with you that really helped me and in the community. So, I had to go back in the building July 4th to start the new year, right after July 4th as a principal.

Well, there were construction companies in there saying, we want to get you back in the building when school starts a new school year. And I was so happy, but there were loud sounds, and those loud sounds were re-traumatizing me. When I first walked down the hallway, I relived that gunman coming towards me. I relived that barrel of the gun pointing at me, and I can remember running out of that building, I can remember, I said, I can’t do this. And I called my counselor. And he said. That if every time you walk in here, you see that gunman coming towards you, every time you walk in here, you see yourself in pools of blood, he said, your career at Columbine is finished.

And he said, I want to do something with you. Let’s… I want to try something with you. He said, tell me something about Rachel Scott.

I remember her being on the stage two weeks prior, and at the end, standing ovation. Tell me something about Isaiah. He would fist pump me every day downstairs in the cafes. Tell me something about Lauren Townsend. I remember her mom coached volleyball, I coached football, and every day I walked out for football practice, I’d see Lauren in a playpen as a little kid.

He had me do that for all 13.

And now, I wasn’t reliving what I experienced, but I was sharing their life.

And, fast forward, we did public commemorations, year 1, year 2, year 3. Year 4 was Easter. Year 5… and what really changed for our community after year 5 is the first 3 years is most… mainly what everyone knew, were these were the kids that died in the school. But Dawn Anna, who was Lauren Townsend’s mom, said, I think… what I want people to know is who they were, even though they died at young ages, you know, 15 through 18. So we had put together a video montage

And now you saw these kids that were laughing. They were in their soccer uniforms, or they were in their Boy Scout uniforms, and now we were not mourning their death, but we were celebrating their lives, and that really helped us heal. And it was really… I mean, we’re talking, you asked, when does it get better? It was the, 25-year remembrance, which was 2024, so…

Rick got together, with Dawn Anna and Bruce Beck, Lauren Townsend’s parents and stepfather and mom.

And we got pictures, and all of a sudden, the media said, what do we want to do this year? So, all of a sudden, I was able to talk to the families, and they were talking about their lives, what their kids would be like if they were 44 years old, or 43 years old, and we saw pictures of Danny Mauser sitting in a, you know, a sink blowing bubbles when he was 2 years old. We saw, you know, people on the soccer team, and things of that nature. And so, all of a sudden, I remember Matt Kechter with meatloaf dripping down his face, and that our community

As a matter of fact, one of the news stations received an Emmy Award for their, role of that video, because it was different, because people saw different things, and it helped them heal.

And even though the Columbine community was affected by it, the people in the state of Colorado were affected by it. People from around the country and around the world. And so what it did was that celebration of life.

And I think, you know, as I stated, I made the comment at Time to Remember and time for hope, and what Columbine High School represents, we’ll never forget that horrific day, but I tell people now the Columbine community, 27 years later, is stronger than what it was on April 20th, 1999.

Q: So, would you say that it also helped you feel more safe in the school when you had to go back to the school?

Frank DeAngelis: Oh, that’s a great question, because I told parents. We were probably the safest school in the world. We had police officers, we had cameras, we had people at every door.

And all of a sudden, I’m sitting in my office, and some students come in and said, Mr. D, we know you love us. We know you want to keep us safe, but we’re more nervous now. Because we see all of this, you know, support here with a gun… or, cameras and things, and they said, should we be afraid?

And that’s when I started thinking, what do we need to do? Because it’s still an educational center that, you know, that’s why they come to school. And something… I mean, talk about trial and error. I can remember another time

A student came in and said, Mr. D, every time you come on the PA system, our hearts started racing. I said, what are you talking about? Because the only time you come on the PA system, say we’re in a lockdown, or this, and so when we say, here’s your voice, their heart started racing. So, right away, I said, I gotta change that.

And all of a sudden, once a week, I would get on and say, hi, students, this is Mr. D. Hey, you have a great weekend, or hey, students, welcome. First… so now you’ve got to change that mindset. And these are lessons I learned I was never prepared for, and this is why I share these lessons with others, and I had some… I had up something called the Principles Recovery Network.

And there are 25 of us, and it was in 2022 that we released the Principal’s Recovery Guide at Columbine High School, and you can go online to see it. And as a matter of fact, in September, we’re going to Parkland, Stoneman Douglas, and we’re going to do a revamp or re-editing of that. But it really talks about what do you do when you go back into the building for the first time? What do you do about graduation?

What do you do about memorials? And so, it’s not that we’re experts, but we’re just saying, this is what worked for us, and this is what did not.

Q: I know you said there was no bullying. Was there anything you were aware of in general at the culture at Columbine when you were there?

Frank DeAngelis: No, you know, like I said, I had been there 20 years.

And I was finishing my 20th year, I, you know, I taught and coached in my third year as principal. And one of the things that I did learn.. In the aftermath, is so many times… now, we were a school of 2,000 kids, so many times, and this is not only in schools, but businesses, you find people that tell you what you want to hear, and you just assume that’s how it is.

And when I’d walk down the hallways, kids would fist-bump me, say, yeah, we’re Columbine, we’re rebels, Columbine rebels.

But when I became a better principal, is when I walked outside the doors of Columbine, and there were some kids smoking cigarettes, cutting classes, or they were at the skate park, and I said, what are you doing? And they said to me, do you even know who we are?

And I knew who they were. They said, you know, you say you know who we are, but there’s kids in your school that can care less if we ever walk in that building again.

And that was an eye-opener for me, and so one of the things that I said to them is, I want you to get everyone that feels like you feel, I’m gonna meet with you, just me. And we’re gonna meet, I’m fair game. And there was about 100 of those kids that showed up, and they laid into me, not what I wanted to hear, but what I needed to hear.

And that was so important, and I did an activity with them that I… and, you know, a carabiner that I gave everyone, and I said, each of you, and it said, we are Columbine. I said, each of you represent a link at Columbine High School.

And I said, each of you are an individual. And I said, we are going to change this culture because we’re 2,000 strong, and I want everyone to feel welcome. That includes students, staff, parents. And I said, now.

What makes us special is, can you imagine taking 500 individuals, and we call you the Class of 2017? Now, we have 500 individuals, that class of 2017 is becoming strong.

But can you imagine if we do the same and take 500 individuals from the class of 2016 and connect them to the class of 2015 and 14? And I said, can you imagine if we find a way to get 2,000 individuals, which makes us so unique. Because you all have something to offer, but then we know we’re always connected to someone. So I said, and I had no idea if this was going to work.

I said, I’m gonna put on the song, We Are Family.

And by the end, we’re gonna find a way to come together. All of a sudden, I put that song on, and kids and staff members are running across the gym floor. There’s kids that were athletes in their letter jackets next to those kids that had body piercings and tats, and they’re standing up saying, we are Columbine, we are Columbine. And I said… Next week, I’m gonna put that chain up in the hallway, and there’s gonna be days, you know, you may have failed a test, you’re fighting with boyfriend or girlfriend, parents, remember that you’re connected to someone.

And when I realized the importance of that, a few years ago, I was doing a presentation. And a parent or a lady comes up to me and said, I love that story about the link, it’s so powerful.

And I don’t know how to tell you this. And I said, what? She said, I’m friends of the parent of one of your students. And unfortunately, he was just in a car accident and passed away, and when they returned the belongings to the parents, that link was in his pocket. Because I would give every student, senior that graduated their link.

Saying, even though you’re leaving Columbine, you’re going to be connected to us, always. Rebels for Life.

Q: Do you feel there were any warning signs within the school, in hindsight, that maybe could have deserved more attention?

Frank DeAngelis: You know, I look at it, I… we didn’t have things in place back then. We didn’t have threat assessment. These kids… were honors students. Now, in all of our schools, there are teachers, there are counselors, you know, administrators that look, saying, you know, I’m kind of worried. These two were not those kids.

These were honors students. As a matter of fact, Klebold went with his mom and dad to the University of Arizona, where he had been accepted. They were going to go look at rooms in the campus.

Harris was trying to get into the military, because his dad was military. These were… these were honor students. These were, I mean, gifted and talented students. The thing that still haunts me is 3 days before… it was the 17th, 17th day, yeah, we had our junior-senior prom. At prom.

Klebold’s there with his girlfriend, he’s picking me up, hugging me, love you, Mr. D, knowing… That in 3 days a lot of those kids would have been killed if their plan was carried out. You know, Harris was sitting there. These were kids that were involved in school activities. These were kids. As a matter of fact, they got in trouble as juniors. They broke into a… they burglarized a van, and so they were in a diversion program. Well, they wrote this letter that the magistrates said, these are just two kids that made a mistake.

They learned their lesson. And I saw the letter written, but then I saw a journal entry afterwards that Harris had wrote, and they were, like, two different people.

And, I mean, and I refer to it, and you’re much too young to know this person, but Eddie Haskell, you know, yes, Mrs. Cleaver, no Mrs. Cleaver, they had people fooled. And as a matter of fact, I can’t tell you the number of teachers and staff members came in saying, oh my gosh, I never saw that side of them.

It’s kind of like when someone commits a crime and neighbors are saying, we never saw that side of it. You know, and that’s the thing that was so difficult. And, you know, one of the things, I think, when we look over the past… when we look now back and look at what’s moving forward.

Back in the day, if someone said, hey, you don’t want to be there tomorrow at school, you’re saying, why? Oh, gee, you just don’t… you don’t… that didn’t register. Now… if someone says that, and one of the things that I tell communities is you could… you could have cameras, you could have metal detectors, you could have all these programs. Don’t underestimate the power of the students.

And what they see and hear. And so, if they see something on social media saying, you know, you don’t want to be there, or, you know, the increase in teenage suicides and ideation, if they see something, you know, this world would be better without me.

hat’s a red flag that immediately you need to let someone know, a trusted adult, and I think that’s the key. And something that I will wonder until…

Who knows, is how many of their close friends, not that they knew what they were gonna do.

But, you know, if they said, hey, you don’t want to be at lunch anymore, why? You just don’t want to be there. How many were actually in the cafeteria during lunch? And it’s not that they knew, but, you know, if someone said to me, if you said to me, hey, you don’t want to be at school, why? You just don’t want to be there. Well, hopefully I’m going to say, what’s going on? I better tell someone. You know, a trusted adult. And so, that’s where we are.

Q: before the tragedy, beyond the senior prom, did you personally interact with either Klebold or Harris in any way that was memorable?

Frank DeAngelis: Well, I remember, with Klebold, it was the beginning of the year in their senior year, and every year, they end up, we used to do student-directed play.

So Klebold came in with another, and they were telling me, this is why you should select our play. And he was a lighting director, and… I mean, it was fantastic. And I would see them in class, I mean, these were brilliant students.

And so, I mean, they were never in my office. These were kids that… You know, they had friends there that, you know, when I’d go to lunch, they would be down there with their friends and things of that nature. And the million dollar question is they did not meet until they were in seventh grade, because Harris was… his family was a military family.

And so they were, you know, his dad was stationed in several cities or states, and so it wasn’t until 7th grade, and I… and… I know, I truly believe that they would not have carried this out as individuals, that they did it when they came together as one.

Q: you mentioned them, that you watched the tapes. Was there any limitations from a law enforcement administration regarding what could be publicly discussed? I think you mentioned it in your book.

Frank DeAngelis: Yeah, there was situations that, and this is for public knowledge, but there was a hit list out there. and one of the students was on that hit list, and the parents called the police and said that we’re concerned. And so, they went to the district attorney and said that we do not have enough information. Now, I looked back.

And, again, I don’t know, but if they would have went, you know, saying, let’s go check the houses of Harris and Klebold, if they would have found something. Now, these two were smart enough that if they wanted to do something, they would have hit it. But it makes… it does make you wonder if they would have searched the homes, you know, after there was a call about a hit list. You know, that that was a possible warning sign, but if they would have went and searched the homes of Klebold, Harris, would they have found anything in those homes that would have maybe you know, send up a red flag.

And so now, we’re looking at things so differently that if any of that happens, right away, you know, there’s search warrants, you’re checking things out. And, you know, one of the things that I look at is I remember and I can’t remember in what state, but this father got vilified because he walked into his, a room of his daughter, and she said she was going to carry out another thing like Klebold, Harris, and he turned his daughter in. And he got yelled and veiled. How could you do that as a parent? And I applauded the father. I said, he should be pet… because he saved his life, or his daughter’s life, along with how many others. And I think that’s the important thing.

And even Sue Klebold, when she wrote the book, and when she does her TED Talks, she said her and her husband knew that something was wrong, that he was depressed, and they kind of said, well, you know, it’s a senior, he’s 17 years old.

But she wishes they would have got him the help, because he was crying out for help. And that’s what the Klebolds said.

Q: So there were a lot of… in hindsight, at the very least, warning signs.

Frank DeAngelis: Right, and I think that’s the thing that you gotta look at, you know, in America, we say they’re Monday morning quarterbacks looking back, but you gotta look at what was in place then. Now, if any of this stuff happens, you’re saying, yeah, we gotta look at it.

Q: Over the years, many people have wondered why that the full school records were never public released. From your perspective, what factors influenced that decision?

Frank DeAngelis: Boy, I’m not sure. You know, I really don’t know. I think a lot of it was, we talked about the basement tapes, the reason for that, and unfortunately, I think… As long as they go to the correct people, the correct organizations where you can look at it, but unfortunately, once they’re released and published then… It’s unfortunate there are people out there saying, we’re gonna do what they did, continue doing, and if you do your research, there has probably been at least 300 to 400 others that wanted to carry out another Columbine.

And I mean, you look at Sandy Hook, you look at Virginia Tech, there are situations not only in the United States, but around the country. I think there was one in Australia or New Zealand.

That they idolize these two killers. And so… and that’s what I tell people when I go out and talk to them. If these kids are talking about the two killers.

You know, and what they did, that’s a red flag. And if you did your research, I mean, I can’t tell you the number of people that, young people that associate with the two killers, and what they did, and glorified, and they want to, you know, do this in memory of the two killers, and that is… it’s just… it scares me.

Q: Yeah, so for you, it was more so your way of prevention.

Frank DeAngelis: Right.

Q: Do you think the way schools approach safety, mental health, or student culture today has meaningfully changed because of Columbine?

Frank DeAngelis: Oh, big time. The only drills we did back in 1999 in Colorado were fire drills. You know, and I’m sure around the country you had tornado drills or things of that nature. You know, when I was growing up in the 60s, we did shelters and things of that nature, and… but now around the country, around the world, they’re doing drills that, you know, run, hide, and fight, you know, and types of things. We never did that. And now we are training, and I think the important thing is school officials need to take the drill seriously. You know, because if you get up and say, okay, the school district is just telling us we gotta do it, let’s just get it out of the way, but you have to get up there and train, and because… and I think what happened in the United States when we had the insurrection on January 6th, there were congresspeople, there were people that were there saying their lives were saved because of drills they learned when they were in college and in school. And so it’s… and I say this all the time, parents are saying, are we scaring? It’s not to scare, it’s to prepare.

And so, I look at it from the standpoint, as a parent, as a grandparent, I can remember telling my granddaughter, okay, you’re gonna hold Papa’s hand crossing the street, or you don’t want to talk to a stranger. And it’s not, and we do that as parents, but yet, why can’t we do these drills to teach them? You know, I can remember the first time I went to my granddaughter’s school in kindergarten, this was 7 years ago.

And they’re doing a drill, and they’re saying, everybody in the building, in the building, these kids are saying, Papa, Papa, what’s going on? And I’m not gonna say, well.

If there was a shooter outside, we gotta get you in the building. These are kindergarten. I said, you know, if for some reason a dog is off a leash, then we need to get you in the building. And it’s how you share the story.

You know, it’s just like, if I walked in, or someone who’s doing these drills tell teachers, you better, you gotta, you gotta fight. Well, you tell teachers they gotta fight, no, but you use the word, we need to defend and protect. It’s how you share the message, which is important.

Q: When you look back now, after all these years, what do you hope people ultimately remember about Columbine?

Frank DeAngelis: I do not want that one day to define the school. I mean, it opens its door… it opened its doors back in 1973, and what happened that day is horrific, but it does not define all the good things that have come out, all the good things that happened prior and continue to happen now. You know, what we have done for the past 10 years on April 20th is we do a day of service.

And each year, we have over 1,000 people involved in projects, not only in Colorado, but around the country, and even out, you know, in other countries. And so, what we’re doing is in memory of those 13.

And I think, you know, when I talk to the parents, and every year, I reach out to the parents who lost their loved ones, and they talk about what they thought their sons or daughters would be doing, Mr. Sanders would be doing, and… and if you look at, you know, and I published a book back when I retired.

And in the last chapter of the book, it’s, what the parents wrote about their loved ones at the Columbine Memorial, and it just… it’s really heartwarming, and I was just there less than a month ago reading what those parents said about their kids and what they thought they would be doing right now. And I think that’s the key, is… We look at… That, hopefully, they did not die in vain. That, you know, we offer hope, no matter what the situation is, that there’s always hope. And that’s what those parents who lost their loved ones say, you know, this is what my daughter… you know, they said my daughter would be doing this, or they would be doing that, and that’s how we continue.

Q: Is there anything you feel is important that people rarely ask you about?

Frank DeAngelis: No, I think you covered it, and over the 27 years, you know, it really is, I think… oh, you know, one of the things I think that’s important when I go out to these various communities.

The first thing people say to me is, I can’t believe it happened here.

Well, if you would have told me at Columbine could have happened at Columbine back in April of 1999, I would have said no. And I think what we’re seeing now… is a lot of times, parents are saying, well, we don’t want to put our kids in public school because of safety. But even now, these events are happening in private schools, you know, and things of that nature. And again, I even know, you know, I’m still active in the church, and I help with security, and a lot of times people feel, you know, faith-based, and I can remember it was after a situation at Marshall County, and a counselor called up and said, Frank, we know you’re a person of faith.

And we know how that’s important, but you also talk about that counseling component.

And, you know, because a lot of times people will say, well, God will fix it, God will fix it, but…

You know, God gave us things, He gave us counselors, He gave us medication to help and things like that, and so I think that’s important, and I know even in my own church, I have staff members coming up and saying, you need to talk to the priest, saying that we need to do certain things. And it’s not necessarily only if there’s a gunman outside. But we had, during Mass, we had someone that was having a heart attack.

And so, I was able to get other people. We went there, and we were able to get that person saved. So it’s… it’s preparing people, and I think that’s the most important thing. And what we see over the years is that it’s happening in rural communities, it’s happening in inner cities, it’s helping in suburbs. We saw in Minnesota, it happened at a Catholic church where, fortunately, the doors were locked, or that could have been much worse, so it could happen anywhere. And we gotta just be prepared and the one thing I think’s important is I had someone asked me right after, what are you going to do? I said, what are we going to do?

And that’s one of the things right now, and I was just at a conference in New England where you have police officers, you have firefighters, you have administrators, you have parents, and don’t underestimate the students, saying, what do you feel we need?

And because they can give you some things, and I think that’s the important thing, getting as much input. As I tell people, they’re all of our kids, you know, and it doesn’t matter California, Colorado, you know, Denmark places, they’re all of our kids, and what are we going to do to protect them?

And… and I share this all the time. As a parent, one of the worst things you ever have to do is bury your child. You know, and my mom, fortunately, I had her for 91 years. She passed last year. My dad’s 95. If my dad had to bury me, even though I’m 72… I’m gonna be 72, I’m still his kid.

And that’s what we have to do, is we need to make sure we do everything to protect our kids, and what is it gonna take? It’s gonna take all of us coming together. And in the United States, I think…

And even our world right now, I’m just worried we’re so divided, but in the United States, we’re so divided. And unfortunately, what it takes is, I think back to, you know, September 11th of 2000, you know, 9-11, and even though our country was divided, we came together. Because we were attacked by an enemy.

And that’s what I saw with Columbine, and we were a strong community, but after that, what I saw is I saw alumni coming forward. I saw people from around the state coming forward. I saw people that were there. We were united. And, you know, when I state, what happened that day was an act of terrorism. And how do you stop that?

Q: I think my last question is, do you think we have come far enough, or do we still have a lot more to do? Because from my perspective, as I noticed, a lot of these school shootings or school attacks have started to bleed into Europe as well, even though they have strict gun laws, then the student will find a knife instead, or something else.

Frank DeAngelis: Yeah, and I agree, I can remember getting calls… I got a call from someone in Germany, and they said this would never happen.

Yeah, you know, in our country, because of tough gun laws it won’t happen, well, a month later it did. Same thing in Canada, and we just can’t… and like you said, I think it was in Japan, where someone walked in with a knife and things of that nature. And we just… I think at times, people feel if we don’t talk about it, it’s not gonna happen. And what scares me…

And I think a lot of this has to do with social media, and I mean, I remember back in the day, I saw the movie The Exorcist, and this was back in the 70s, and I just remember some of that had terrified me. Well, now, what we see happening is these kids, whether it be video games or what they’re seeing. Are we desensitizing kids? And people? And where I never want to hear, what I don’t want to hear or see happen is when people said, okay, how many this time?

We can’t accept… we can’t accept this from happening. It’s like, okay, another school shoot… okay, how many this time? And that, we can’t. Enough is enough, and we have to do everything in our power to stop it. And it can happen anywhere, as we see.

I mean, just recently in Canada, it happened. And this is a small community, and no one ever expected it. And as I stated, wherever I go, country, things of that nature. And the other thing, too.

You know, what you brought up moving forward, and people came up to me and said, God, Columbine, these shootings started… well, just in 1990, there were 6 or 7 that happened. Columbine was not the first. And if you did research, I think there were school shootings that went back all the way to the 1800s. And so it wasn’t like it was something new, that Columbine was the first, but it was because of the 24-7 news cycle that was brought out, but just within 1990, I talked about Heath, I talked about Pearl, Jonesboro, Pearl, Mississippi, Springfield, Oregon. Columbine wasn’t the first, and unfortunately.

One of the things that just blew me away is when I met with a lot of the people who were part of this Principal Recovery Network.

I… we didn’t even know the shootings occurred in these places. And unfortunately, if… and this is not to diminish

What happened in other cities, in other states, but when you think about it, school shooting, what name comes up? Columbine? You know, Sandy Hook, Parkland.

Well, those are three, but you look at all these others that have happened in Ohio. We talk about various places where they’ve happened. Marshall County, and they do happen. Annunciation in private and public schools, but the three… and it’s not that those schools were more important, and the other thing people will say to me, well, I don’t even want to talk about it, because we didn’t lose 13. And I said, it doesn’t matter the number.

If you had a school shooting on your campus, that is affecting you. It’s not a competition who suffers more.

And we’ve got to stop this from happening. And unfortunately, what we’re seeing now, and I don’t know what’s happening across the country or around the world, but we see it happening at graduations, we see it happening at sporting events, things of that nature. And so, once again, we have to be a step ahead. Unfortunately.

These perpetrators, these potential killers are trying to out-think everyone. And that’s why a lot of times, you know, they know what you have in place. I look at it a lot of times. You walk around a lot of schools, and it’s very secure.

You know, as school starts. But now, if all of a sudden you have a school like Columbine, you have 1,500 kids that are all arriving at 7.30 to go to school, that’s when the school is most vulnerable.

And that’s when a lot of these perpetrators are doing it, before school, after school, when students are going out to lunch. They are out trying to out-think all the people that are creating the security for the school.

Q: Yeah, I believe, too, that Anne-Marie, before she passed, worked with something that was called no notoriety to the perpetrators, and maybe that could also be something the media could be working more strongly on.

Frank DeAngelis: Well, and people… they’ll tell me this, well, you talk about your 13, but you don’t… you refer to them as the killers. And… and that’s one of the things I learned. When I went out, if I said, associate names with Columbine.

They would probably be able to give you the names of the two killers, but they could not name the 13.

And that’s what I do every morning before my feet hit the ground, I recite the names of my 13. When I go out and present, I start my presentation by the names of the 13, and I end with the names, because I don’t want people to say, yeah, those two… No.

And people will say, well, those were two kids you lost also. The 13 didn’t have a choice the two killers get.