Echoes in the Columbine Archive

I had the privilege of interviewing Frank DeAngelis twice for my upcoming book, I appreciated his honesty, perspective and time a lot. While the material explored in the book will go into far greater depth, I felt that the interviews themselves were so valuable and insightful that I wanted to share the raw conversations here as part of this research archive.

For the sake of transparency and preservation, I’ve included the raw transcripts below with only minimal edits for readability, while keeping the actual recordings private.

Interview

Q: Do you believe the intense media focus on Columbine affected the healing process for students and staff? And also kind of wondered, in hindsight, the level of courage may have unintentionally contributed to the notoriety of them.

Frank DeAngelis: Yes, most definitely. It really hurt us with the healing process. I think in Colorado, there was something about Columbine every day for over a year.

And it got to the point that our community, did not want to work with the medium. And one of the things that I decided to do is I realized the media was going to continue to do what they were going to do, and they were going to talk about the event to that day. And I… I think the school district, and I think our community, and my staff said that they really wanted me representing them.

So what I told the media is I said, I’ll do interviews with you about the events of that day, but now I need for you to do media coverage on our healing process. And that really helped us, and so they did cover things that we were doing to help us heal, that it was not just strictly about the events of that day.

And I think, you know, we talked about this earlier, the only social media back then was Myspace, and we are still talking about it, and I attribute that to the media 24-7, and… and I can’t remember if it was after Sandy Hook, and it might have been Anistair Cooper who said that we’re gonna do the no notoriety, that so many times we know who the killers are, or the killer, but we don’t know who the kids are or the people who lost their lives, Mr. Sanders and the 12th.

And so I make sure that we continue to talk about them. I think a lot of times what happens is, if you did research on it, there have been over… well over 300 people who have stated they want to do another Columbine.

And just recently, as I stated, on April 20th in Mexico City. That person said that he was honoring the two killers. So, definitely, I think, The media had a…

You know, by just keeping the two of the memories alive, and it really does, and I think what I tell people when I go out and talk to communities, talk to law enforcement, if you have students in your school or people in your communities that are really infatuated with the two killers, that’s a red flag, because of everything that we’ve seen over the years, and number.. And the two, I know, I just mentioned Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, but now Mexico City, but time and time again, I think kids weren’t even born when this event happened, and they’re still idolizing those two. And the thing that’s so disturbing to me is when I listened to the two killers talk about things in the basement tape, they said, we’re gonna live on long past, you know, this day, and unfortunately, it’s happening, and it’s sad.

Q: You mentioned seeing Eric and Dylan at prom. From your perspective, did they appear normal and socially engaged with the other people there?

Frank DeAngelis: Yes, and Eric was not at prom, he was at our  after prom. What we had is prom, and Klebold was there with his girlfriend.

And I think he was in 4 other couples, if my memory serves me right, they had a limousine. They came up, and Klebold was picking me up, hugging me, loving me, ’’Mr. D’’, dancing with the other couples, knowing that in 3 days, the… there was a chance that, you know, they could die. And then I can remember going to the after prom at Columbine, and I remember Harris sitting there playing, you know, we had, like, casino games and things of that nature, so there were nothing, you know, they were there, knowing that in 3 days what their plan was, so that… it was tough.

Q: Did the tragedy permanently change the way you view teenagers or student behavior, but did it reinforce your belief in young people?

Frank DeAngelis: you know, I look at it, and I think in talking to people after Columbine.

The thing that crossed their mind, just like on that particular day.

If you would have told me a Columbine could have happened at Columbine, I would have said no. I had been there for 20 years, and I… even now, people, I think, when they see it happening, they said, could that happen at my school? And I…

I’m a very positive person, that I build upon the positive and don’t dwell on the negative. And so, a lot of times, I think…

What our society tries to do is find that one thing that’s gonna stop these things from happening.

And there’s not that one thing. That’s what they tell me, and, you know, and I said, we gotta look at it, it’s a combination of things, but sometimes you could have the best laid out plans, you could have everything in place, you could do threat assessment, but sometimes there’s just evil. You know, Dave Collum, in his book, Columbine, talks about that.

and just pure evil in there, and it’s hard to distinguish. You know, right after, they said, well, because they listened to a certain type of music.

And I said, there’s millions of kids that listen to certain types of music, or they play video games. They do not become mass murderers, and I think that’s the thing that’s, you know, you gotta look at, that sometimes it’s just unpredictable, and I can tell you, and I’m not sure if we talked about this last week, throughout my career afterwards, I had teachers coming in saying, I can’t believe that, we did not see that side of them. We saw these bright, smart kids..

The magistrate, you know, who said, these are two good kids that made a mistake, you know, that type of thing. And I use the analogy a lot of times when you see someone, a neighbor or someone that’s involved in a shooting, and the neighbor said, boy, we just saw this kind person we would have never expected.

And so there were not the warning signs that, you know, stand out. And I think, probably in all schools, that there are teachers, there are principals, counselors that are saying, you know, we gotta watch, you know, there’s some things going on, and do we need to provide help for him or her, or things of that nature.

Q: did Eric and Dylan appear socially isolated? From your perspective as the principal at school, or did they seem more integrated into student life than people often assume today?

Frank DeAngelis: Oh, they were involved, and like I said, they were at prom. As a matter of fact, Klebold was a lighting specialist for the play that Rachel Scott was in two weeks prior. (Smoke in the room) And, I mean, they were involved in student activities, they went to prom, they went to after prom.

You know, they applied for colleges, and Dylan went with his mom and dad to Tucson, University of Arizona to look at dorm rooms. They were trying to show people, you know, everything was fine. And… and even, you know, Harris, his dad was military, and he wanted to be a Marine.

And so, I mean, when you’re looking at it, it wasn’t like, you know, they were graduating in the top of their class, they were honors students, so these are not two students that you would look at and say, gosh, what’s going on?

Q: Over the years, many different interpretations of Eric and Dylan’s dynamic and psychology have emerged. Do you personally feel those narratives have become overly simplified, or do you think they reflect the reality fairly accurately?

Frank DeAngelis: Well, again, I’m gonna refer back to David Cullen, and he said he really felt that Harris, and I do not have a background in psychology, but he was a psychopath.

And I mean, if you look at a history of psychopaths throughout our history, you know, what do they do? You know, and they found out later that he, you know, injuring pets, and there’s certain things, but I can remember, in referring to Klebold.

Dave Cullen said he was more of a sociopath than I… you know, even his mother, she pointed out in her book and in some of the TED calls, that he really had…suicidal ideations that she wishes she would have reached out to help because he was struggling. And so, when I look at this, and I can remember it had to be the summer right after the tragedy, and I was at Quantico, and there was, FBI profilers. And all of a sudden, there were some other school administrators there, and school personnel, and they had this checklist.

And there was… I’ll never forget this, there was an administrator saying.

my gosh, that would describe about 500 kids in my school with this checklist, so that one checklist does not necessarily indicate that he or she may be a, you know, a potential shooter or killer. You know, you look at all these things coming together that, you know, then, I think  that’s the most important thing that I stated earlier. If there was one thing that can determine what is causing the shooters to do what they do, then we could do certain things like that. And I can’t remember if this was a conversation with you or when I was recently presenting, but one of the things that happens as we have so many things in place right now.

You know, that we didn’t when Columbine happened. But a lot of these shooters, potential shooters, are looking to see what we have in place, and they’re planning their attack around it. And as I stated earlier.

So many times, if you walk into most schools after school begins.

Schools are locked down, you have vestibules, things of that nature. But what happens, especially when you get a school like Columbine and other schools where you have 1,400, 1,500 students arriving all at once.

Where schools are more vulnerable during that time.

And a lot of these shooters now are looking at these events occurring before school, after school, when, you know, the opportunity presents itself. And I think that’s what you look at, you know? And now, we’re looking at events of, whether it be graduation ceremonies or, you know, graduation events, football, or, athletic events, and so these people are outsmarting

You know, trying to outsmart what they’re doing, and I think that’s a lot of times when you come out, and they practice these drills, and they see exactly what’s gonna happen, what, you know, doors are gonna be locked, and they’re planning their attacks around some of the safety features that are out there.

Q: Looking back, do you think there was aspects of their personalities that others around them might have misunderstood?

Frank DeAngelis: Well… I can’t remember if we had this conversation, but Eric Harris did have a hit list.

And he listed some students on that hit list. And one of the parents turned it into the police. Now, looking back on that. I think if you look at the hit list, you look at, some of the writings they had, then you’re saying, well, gosh, you know, this one event not… but now you start piecing this all together.

And you’re saying, boy, maybe this is something we need to do as far as a threat assessment, going to the house. And, you know, when I look at it from the standpoint that these two killers, along with so many of the others, they’re smart enough to realize that they’re gonna be able to hide things, and even though they were being very… they were almost to the point of wanting to get caught. I mean, in these basement tapes, they had fuse wire in one of the rooms, they were just showing things, carrying out a gun, you know, and things of that nature. And it was at that time you’re looking at it, and…

You look back on it now, and say, God, were there certain warning signs that we missed? And one of the things I think that we’re doing such a much… or we’re doing a better job right now is the fact that we were all acting as separate entities, but now police are working with firefighters, they’re working with psychologists, that are working with teachers. And don’t underestimate what I tell people all the time, the students, and what they see and what they hear.

And, you know, back in the day, you know, you couldn’t say, you know, there’s a bomb in the theater or on a plane. Now, before 9-11, you didn’t think… but now, that being said, or if someone, whether it be elementary or the high school, I’m going to bring a gun to school, that’s a red flag, you know, and things of that nature. And so we’re looking at things now, but I think students and I think I told you this, I will always wonder.

You know, their close friends, if they did say something, you don’t want to be in the lunchroom, or you don’t want to be in school during lunch. And if those students now, if someone says that, I am hoping, and when I would talk to my students. That’s a warning sign that you need to be able… if someone came to me and said, hey, you don’t want to be there tomorrow, why? You just don’t want to be there. Well, then I need to be able to go tell the school resource officer, the principal, saying, I’m concerned because so-and-so said this, and then you follow up on it.

Q: Did you have any interactions or conversations with other Eric or Dylan’s family after the tragedy, and how did those experiences affect your perspective in the years afterwards?

Frank DeAngelis: I ended up… I sent sympathy cards to both families.

I did not go visit the families, it just… I had to deal with the larger picture of the 12 or 13 that, you know, the 12 students, Mr. Sanders.

You know, people say, well, you lost 15, and I think I stated this to you, but the 13 did not have a choice that day. The other two did.

And I did run into Mrs. Klebold, it was a few years, or I’m not sure how many years, my wife and I were at a suicide prevention fundraiser, and she was there and said, we need to talk.

And so, you know, it’s just… it was difficult, and everybody deals with it, and I look at them as parents, too.

I look at the 13 that had support, the families had so much support, but those parents also lost their kids, and they didn’t have necessarily the support that they needed.

And even… there were certain families who lost their loved ones that forgave, you know, went and talked to both the parents, I mean, the families, and others that said, I can never do that. And that… everybody deals with something differently, and I look at it from the standpoint.

I don’t know what I would do if it was one of my kids who died. And it’s tough.

Q: Looking back now, do you think that the adults, not necessarily at the school, sometimes interprint at Eric and Dylan through the lens of them being intelligent and involved, and therefore underestimated deeper struggles or warning signs?

Frank DeAngelis: I think, yeah, it’s hard. You know, unfortunately, what ends up happening Is you look at shooters that survived the attack, and they go through trial and things like that. But when the two took their own lives, there were a lot of unanswered questions.

That, you know, what you could base it upon were the basement tapes. What you could base it upon were the journal entries and things of that nature.

And as I stated before.

And someone just told me that it was very interesting from the standpoint that in one of the magazine articles… hold on a second, let me see.

It said that, this was interesting. I had read an article online that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris idolized Adolf Hitler.

And, I mean, they talked about that, and some people think that’s the reason they did on April 20th, because it was Hitler’s birthday, but the question goes on, and Dylan was Jewish. That doesn’t make any sense. And he goes on to talk about it, and so… You know, that was the thing. And in the basement tapes, Harris went on and on about talking about social Darwinism, you know, and certain people deserve to die. And you look at, you know, white supremacy, even now, what we’re seeing in certain people, of what they believe, and things that our society is weakened by certain people, and that was a scary thing. I can remember in those tapes that he was saying, that person deserves to die. And he’s stupid, and he should die. Or the way that he giggles and smiles, he deserves to die. And it was… It sent chills up and down my spine, you know, things of that nature. And they even made mention of Charles Manson and Helter Skelter were going to cause the revolution between white and darky, you know, and so they took some historical perspectives of things, but, you know, Adolf Hitler, the stronger race, and we’re gonna be better, and things of that nature. And one of the things that was haunting as they were getting ready that morning, they did… and I’ll… I still remember this so vividly that Harris was getting ready.

And he’s got a camera on a tripod, and he’s putting on his vest, and the CO2 cartridges, and he’s saying, Mom and Dad, you’re not bad parents, I’m just a bad son. He’s quoting Shakespeare.

I mean, this kid is so… and then the final thing he said, it’s too bad someone didn’t find these tapes before it was too late and the camera goes off.

And so, I mean, it’s just cold-hearted, and that was so tough for me to handle, if those tapes would have been found. If, you know, who knows? Yeah, and a lot of what-ifs.

Q: You mentioned the van breaking during our last conversation, and I was curious, well, if there were any other moments where that noticeably drew concern or got the disciplinary attention within the school environment.

Frank DeAngelis: None that I’m aware of. Like I said, the van, they burglarized and they stole some electronic equipment and things of that nature, but they got caught. And I saw the letters that they wrote to the person, you know, apologizing, and they had to meet with the magistrate. They were in a diversion program, and they had the magistrate saying, these are good kids that made a bad mistake, you know, and things of that nature. So they had people… they just had people fooled in what they did, and their writings, and things that were… it’s just… It’s hard, they knew what they were doing, and they had people fooled.

Q: Do you think the public sometimes forget how ordinary they appeared to people before the attack? Because, of course, in hindsight, we have the tapes and we have the journals, so we feel like it’s a bigger red flag than it probably was when you were with them.

Q: Right, and I think it’s afterwards you start looking and saying, did we miss something? And you start… you start scrutinizing, and you go step by step, and looking back, and I… I would imagine, you know, after the… and I’m sure there’s psychologists out there. You know, I know Peter Langman does… Dr. Peter Langman and Dewey Cornell, they do a good job of looking at some of these mass shooters, whether it be Ted Bundy and some of the others, and they look at, historically, what has happened and tracing back, you know, I think the million dollar question is, if the two did not meet,  would they have carried out this act of violence single-handedly? And I don’t think they would have.

I think they did it together. And it was in seventh grade that the Harris family moved to Colorado, that Harris and Klebel connected in 7th grade, so 5 years later. And so I do not think they would have carried it out individually. But you look at that, and that’s, you know, that’s the question that you ask.

Q: I think a lot of people also wondered if they’d gotten separated after the van incident, if that might have been able to stop the loop of anger they had going on with each other.

Frank DeAngelis: Yeah, and I don’t know, you know, I look at it from the standpoint the two came together, and I think one of the interesting things, and if you’ve read anything by Mrs. Klebold or saw any of her TED Talks. Originally, she really felt that, you know, Dylan was brainwashed by Eric, that he was a mastermind. But after seeing those basement tapes, she realized son was complicit also, that he was very much involved in what was happening, and it wasn’t brainwashed in things of this nature, that they came together to do this.

Q: Do you think people today sometimes project modern conversations about mental health or bullying onto Columbine in ways that oversimplify the reality of the time?

Frank DeAngelis: Well, you know, and we gotta be careful, because… you know, and I told you, there’s certain things you look at, tough for gun laws, you know, gun legislation, mental health, but there are people that are struggling with mental health that are not necessarily going to be mass shooters. And that’s the thing, you know, but there’s certain things, I’m sure…

You know, people that do this for a living look at certain things that are their red flags, and you look at things such as, you know, the herding of animals, things of that nature, destruction of animals. You know, a lot of times with suicide, and they really… I think Mrs. Klebold, and there’s so many others, feel that Klebold was on a suicide mission. And you look at it, and so many times people will say, gosh, right before they took their own life, they were just in good spirit, this type of thing, and I think a lot… again, I’m not an expert, but so many times when someone makes a decision, they’re gonna follow through on taking their own life.

They’re in a place of whatever, you know, and I think with that, that day going through, because I truly believe. They had enough ammunition that they could have continued their rampage, or their act of terrorism. And when they took their own life, by the time their lives were taken, they had enough, but they, I think, going in, and I think any of these shooters that go in, they realize there’s a good chance it’s not going to end well.

You know, and if you look at, and I don’t know the records of this, but in school shootings or these mass tragedies, how many of the shooters survive?

You know, and a lot of times, in the aftermath of that, going through those trials, I mean, we had a couple in Colorado, where there were mass shootings once at a grocery store up in Boulder, another school shooting, and I know working with those communities, having to go through the trial and relive everything like that was very difficult.

Q: were Eric and Dylan generally perceived by staff as close friends, or were they not really noticed together at school?

Frank DeAngelis: Well, I mean, they… they were not… when they were younger, I think they may have played some sports, I don’t know if they played together, and I’m trying to think, I can’t remember if they played soccer their freshman year, but they were, like I said, Klebikd was really involved with lighting and, you know, stage productions and drama and things of that nature, and Harris, like I said, they were in gifted and talented programs and things of that nature, and it wasn’t… I mean, there’s kids that… just are not around for anything, you know? And they cut classes, but these were not the two.

Q: Prior to the tragedy, did the Harris and Klebold families seem engaged and typical from your perspective, or are there any moments that stand out in hindsight?

Frank DeAngelis: You know, I look at it now, I mean, so many times what you end up seeing… 

I know the Harris family, they had an older son that was a football player and an athlete. I remember seeing them at the games supporting their older son. You know, Klebold had an older brother. You know, when I look at this. You know, they were parents… and so many times what happens, and I remember this as a principal, a lot of times when you have parent-teacher conferences or events back to school, parents that you would really like to see there for teachers to talk to them are not necessarily there, but the parents who have, you know, the straight-A students, or the ones that are involved, or the ones that are actively in there. And, you know, Harris and Klebold parents, they were involved in their kids’ lives. It wasn’t, you know and things like that, and I think Mrs. Klebold made the comment, she said, you know, when he was a senior, you know, he was 17, he’s an adult, and she wishes that she saw some warning signs. I think her and her husband saw some warning signs and wishes that he might have been crying out for help, and, you know, well, he’s a senior, you know, he’s gonna be going off to college, and so I think everybody, you know, I gotta believe the parents said, did we miss something? You know, Harris really felt his brother was an outstanding student, outstanding athlete, his dad was military, and I really… I think there was information out there, he didn’t want to let his dad down. That’s why he wanted to be a Marine, and things of that nature. And so, as parents, you look at it and say, did we do something? Did we miss something? You know?

 And those, unfortunately, those answers went away when the two took their own lives.

Q: Do you think it’s become harder, easier for parents today to recognize when their children are emotionally struggling, especially with the influence of social media.

Frank DeAngelis: It’s tough being parents today. I think, you know, there’s so much going on, and you’re looking at AI, and you’re looking at all the different things that are happening, and… you know, if you talk to psychologists, the amount of time kids are paying on the phone, you know, the thing that really shocked me is I was at a conference, and they were talking about suicide. The suicide rates are up amongst, you know, people, and, you know, right away you go to, you know, high school, middle school, but they said in elementary school.  And that just really is… It’s bad for, I don’t care, high school, middle school, but to think elementary, what would cause a kid at a young age to want to hurt him or herself? And I think part of it is that social media. You know what I mean? And I even see that…

I even see that with adults, you know, they do posting, and so much of it’s, you know, how many people like me, or comments made, you know, and that was one of the things I know in talking to people after events at their schools, I said, stay away from social media, because you put something out there, and people are going to respond. And it could be good or bad. And I can remember, kind of tying in, right after Columbine happened, I probably got about 4,000 letters.

And a lot of them were support, you know, supportive letters, but others were, you know, you killed those kids, you deserve to die, how can you even live with yourself?

Well, my counselor said, stop reading those. But now, people are so addicted to social media, and kids are addicted to their phones, and one of the things that is so disturbing, and my wife and I talk about it.

You go to a restaurant, you know, you go to dinner, whether it be a husband and wife, or people dating, or families, instead of sitting there talking, they’re all on their phones, you know? And we’re… our lives are dictated by that. And, you know, in the social media, and I think even

I’ve had this conversation with my friends and wife and things. You keep watching that news, and all you hear about are the bad things, and what does it do for your mental psyche, you know, and things of that nature. And I gotta look at, how do you build things, and… but as parents, I… I really think what happens so many times is you really need to have parenting classes. We would have, classes for parents on social media because a lot of times, parents are unaware of what their kids are doing. I mean, there was a situation, I can’t remember where it was, I mean, parents are checking their kids’ phones and every… but they know how to hide it. And so, there’s certain things, and…

I may have mentioned this last week, but one of the things that concerned me towards the end of my career is there were a lot of kids that were being raised by their grandparents, even great-grandparents. And I’m a grandfather, but the way I raised my kids is much different than the way these kids are being raised now, and there has to be lessons. You know, what scares me is, and I see this where parents. Parents or kids, or… Parents are even posting pictures of their kids and where they are. Well, there are predators out there that are, you know, building off of this, and you gotta be careful. And it’s these types of things, and so it’s… it’s changed, and I… I really think, you know, as parents, what do you do, and how do you do it?

Q: Do you think schools today rely too heavily on security measures alone, rather than focusing equally on student connection and emotional support? Because you mentioned to yourself how important it was to you that you kind of did both.

Frank DeAngelis: Well, I…When I go out, and if you ever heard me talk, I can’t tell you how many times I talk about relationships, relationships, relationships. And I use this comment, they don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.

And if you have that one adult that you trust, that school resource officer, that principal, you know, one of the things that..For at my heart is my last day. A young man, a kid that I would hug every day, big, burly kid come up, hug me, Mr. D, lift me up. My last day, they were following me for the year. They were doing a documentary on me, and this kid comes up to me.

And he said, thanks for being more of a father to me than my dad ever was. And it just broke my heart.

You know, and that’s what I used to tell those teachers each and every day, you could make a difference, and you may not even realize it now. The other night, I was at a banquet, a Hall of Fame banquet, and there were all these kids that got these Hall of Fame awards that were graduates from the class of 2008 to 2010, and every one, all seven of them mentioned

You know, the relationships that they remember me be, knowing their names in the hallway, and things of that nature. And, you know, I can remember early on that they said, well, make sure you learn the kid’s name by, you know, the end of the first semester. And I said, you gotta be kidding me. I got 30 kids, I’m gonna know their names as quickly as possible. And kids were shocked. And we were a school of 2,000, you know, when Columbine happened, and kids were shocked when I’d walk down the hallway. And say, (name), how you doing?

And they looked, you know, my name. And even when I went outside for some of those kids that were cutting classes, they were smoking cigarettes, or at the skate park, and I said, what are you doing? They said, do you even know who we are? And I knew their name.

And it’s all about relationships, and it can take that one adult, because I think so many times, and I used to tell my teachers this.

you know, if kids were not turning in assignments, or doing poorly, I said, have you looked into their background?

Because a lot of times, they just assume they’re lazy, they don’t care about school. But I said a lot of times where I learned my lessons is I looked at the family situations. Are the parents going through a divorce? Are, you know, these types of things, and find out what’s going on in their lives. And that’s an important thing, and I think that’s part of education. You know, I,

I’ve stated this time and time again, and not all people would agree, but…

if I’m interviewing someone for a job, and there are some people come in and they’re saying, you know, I have this degree, and I, you know, and I have this, and I believe this, and I have this, I could really bring knowledge on it, but they never talk about the kids’ relationships, or how they can help others. And I bring someone else comes in and saying, you know, I’m a team player, I’m gonna make sure, I’m gonna help every kid succeed, and I don’t hear a lot

about I,I, I, but more about kids. I’m gonna hire that person that may not have the… I’m not gonna hire anyone incompetent. But I’m not gonna hire… I’m gonna hire someone that has that personality, caring personality, because I can send him or her to go get that education and knowledge. I can’t give someone a personality to care about kids. And I think that’s the important thing. You know, and I even… when we talk about school resource officers, and I work with police officers, they said, not all police officers are meant to be school resource officers.

It takes that special person, not only with law enforcement, but also about relationships, relationships, relationships, and I think that’s the key. And I think that was the tough thing, as I stated earlier, so many of the teachers came up and said, God, I talked to those kids in class, and they were great, and this type of thing, and they said, did we miss something? And sometimes, as I stated earlier, sometimes there’s no answers for it.

Q: When you think of the students who were lost, what are some of the qualities and memories that stand out most strongly to you today that you carry with you?

Frank DeAngelis: Well, every morning I stated, you know, every morning I wake up.

And the first thing I do is recite, their name’s Cassie Bernall, Steven Curnow, Corey DePooter, Kelly Fleming, Matt Kechter, Daniel Mauser, Danny Rohrbough, Dave Sanders, Rachel Scott, Isaiah Shoels, John Tomlin, Lauren Townsend, Kyle Velasquez. I’ve done that for the past 27 years, and they give me the reason to do what I do every day. And I think what I stated to you last week.

When I first went back into that building to start the new school year, and I was there about 6 weeks or before that, before the students arrived, and all I kept seeing was the gunmen coming towards me. My counselor said, if that… if you don’t change that mindset, you’re in trouble. You know, so I think of Cassie Bernall, and I remember her being at the homecoming dance. You know, Steven now was involved with golf, and when I’d go play golf, he was over at the golf course. You know, Corey DePooter, same thing over at the golf course, and Steven was actually a sophomore, or a freshman, he was a soccer player. Kelly Fleming, I would see her at church with her parents. Matt Kechter, he was a football player, I remember watching him play football as a ophomore. Daniel Mauser, same thing. He would be at 11.30 Mass, or 11.15 Mass, with Kelly Fleming’s family. You know, Danny was a freshman, and I can remember him being outside during lunch hour. 

Dave Sanders. That was tough. He was my mentor, you know, and I had this conversation, it was so strange, the day before Columbine’s playing Chatfield.

One of our arch rivals, and we’re just sitting in the bleachers, talking for about 2 hours about our lives together. And he came in 1977, I came in 79, and we were talking about, you know, there’s times we probably need to be more with our families, but, you know, and his daughter went to school with my son, and the whole… and we’re having this deep, deep, deep conversation, and at the time, it made no sense. I mean, we’re just talking.

And then, all of a sudden, he’s getting ready to leave, he said, would you do anything differently? And I said, you know, I would do it again, but I would look at time with family. He said, you know, I’ve thought about that, and he said, I’m looking so forward to spending time with my grandkids. You know, and he said, I gotta go to open gym.

If I would have known that was the last conversation I would have had with him, because the next morning, I wasn’t at Columbine, and usually I was there every morning having coffee with him. I would have just tugged him and told him how much I love him. And, you know, so many fond memories when Mr. Sanders and I were at each other’s weddings, we coached together, he was my mentor. Rachel Scott, just seeing her on the stage two weeks before.

People standing up, clapping. I was in the front row. You know, Isaiah. Every day, I would come downstairs for lunch duty. He’d come up and fist pump me, Mr. D, how you doing? You know, I remember that. John Tomlin, you know, he was another one that went… I would remember he drove this pickup truck, and then afterwards they had his truck that was over at the memorial.

Lauren Townsend, It was a tough one, because I had known Lauren from the time she was a little kid. Her mom was a volleyball coach when I was a football coach, and I can remember going out to practice, and Lauren would be in this little playpen over there, and just smiling, and, you know, hitting volleyballs, and the whole thing, and then Kyle, it was so tough, because Kyle did not come to Columbine until, February of that year. He was only there a few months. But I had to think of the positive, because if I didn’t, there was no way I was going to continue to stay at that school and be able to heal. And I think that was one of the things that really helped us building upon their lives, even though they were cut short way too quickly.

Q: Do you think the public sometimes forgets how many survivors and families carried lifelong trauma beyond the day itself?

Frank DeAngelis: Oh. I think… I really believe people, they feel, well, when are you gonna get over it? You don’t.

I’m talking 27 years. You’re not… you’re never gonna get over it. Now, it’s not that your life can’t go on, and that’s why it’s so important to get the help you need. You know, I stated for me, my counseling, my faith, exercising, but…

What happens, and I’ve seen this time and time, 10 people call and say, geez, I was doing extremely well 5 or 6 years, and then something happened in my life. Where did this come from? I never expected it. And one of the things that… the two classes I worried the most about, and I can’t remember if we talked about this, was a class of 99.

Because they graduated exactly a month and two days after, and then they were basically gone. And, you know, they went to college, and all of a sudden, professors are saying, we’re going to talk about… they’re having meltdowns, or a fire alarm goes off, and they didn’t have the support. Now, for all of us that came back, the class of 2000, 2001, and two, it was tough, but we had each other.

But the class that was tough, and I’ve talked to those students, the class of 2003, they were in a no-win situation.

Because no matter what they did, it was wrong. You know, if they were crying, they’re saying, why are you crying? You weren’t there. If they were laughing, they’d say, you’re laughing, do you understand what you… where you are? And so, as each class graduated and a new class comes in, it got a little bit easier. And I made sure that even when staff members came in, I had to, you know, go through with everything, even though they weren’t there, because it was a part of that culture. And I… you know, I… I… it would be interesting to have someone do a dissertation on the class of 99, and I know there were students that got involved with drugs and alcohol from that class, suicides in that class, because I think it was tough, because they were off. And I can… what was an eye-opener for me is I had some students come up to me, and it was, at the 10-year reunion, so it would have been 2009, and I said, Mr. D, you said you, you know, you were going to care for us, you were always going to be there for us, but we never heard from you. I said, what are you talking about? I said, I sent letters every year to come back on the 20th. I sent letters to come back for homecoming.

And someone said, I never saw the letters. They went home and told their parents, and the parents said, we didn’t want you to see those letters because we thought it was going to traumatize you.

And that’s where, you know, a lot of times… because I didn’t have their… I mailed the letters, you know, where they were living in high school. And so you just learn what you do, and… and the thing I can remember was that the tenure. The class of 99 came back.

And I was getting ready, I knew what I was going to say, and all of a sudden, I’m looking down, they’re downstairs, and I came with their kids, and I saw them hugging each other and laughing. I changed my whole speech, because it was more of where they were, and it was the 20-year reunion, it would have been, what would that have been? 2019. All of a sudden, I invited back the classes of 99 through 2000, and usually we had previous times at the 5-year, 10… we may have had maybe 100 kids. We had over 1,000 kids show up.

And I did an impromptu assembly, and I took them back, I said, now, I want to take you back to high school. And for so many of you, all you do is remember that horrific day. But think back to things that you did that made you smile, whether it be making a basket, whether it be, you know, in the gym, or on the stage, or classrooms, and then we did the famous, I said, now, you’re not 37 years old, or 40 years old. Think back to when you were 15, 16, and all of a sudden, these kids are laugh… I mean, these are young adults, and they got their kids there, and they’re laughing and cheering. We’re Columbine.

And they said that helped them heal, because now, instead of just dwelling on that one horrific day, they thought back about the 4 years they had there that were good.

Q: as you mentioned, too, I’ve spoken to some of the 99 graduates, too, and at least one of them told me that they struggled, especially with addiction afterwards, and they knew a lot of their classmates also struggled with addiction because they were so traumatized, and they felt a little bit, left behind by the media and generally the public. Once they had graduated, they felt forgotten. 

Frank DeAngelis: Yeah. It was, and that’s the thing that was so frustrating, because, like I said, I sent letters out at homecoming, inviting them back. I sent them back, letters out for the one-year remembrance. And a lot of times, a lot of them didn’t want to come back because of what they went through. But others, parents were trying to protect them the best they could, and they didn’t even know I invited them back, you know, and things of that nature, so…

Q: Looking at schools today, what concerns you most, and what gives you the most hope?

Frank DeAngelis: Concerns, I think we talked about social media.

You know, I think the other thing, and now I’m sounding like the guy, get off my lawn, but, you know, when I was growing up, not that I was a bad kid. But if I did something wrong, there were consequences at home.

I knew my parents loved me, and I mentioned this, I said, back in the day, I would get grounded, and they said, what do you mean, grounded? You know, and I said, well, if you got in trouble, then I couldn’t do something for a week, or things of that nature. And what I saw towards the end of my career is parents are blaming everyone else, and the kids… I would call kids in my office, parents would be there, and all of a sudden, the parents are saying, it’s not my kid’s fault, it’s the teacher, or this, and all of a sudden, the kid’s just kind of sitting there grinning at me. And what scares me, and I tell parents this, you know, sooner or later, they’re gonna be on their own. You know, they’re gonna move out of your house. It may be when they’re 30 years old, or whatever, but they’re gonna go out, and they’re gonna have to make some decisions.

And you’re hoping, saying, you know, what would my parents want me to do? Because they’re gonna have to make those choices. And that’s what scares me, that we live in a society… there are consequences, and we all make mistakes, you know? And even when… whenever I had a student that had a discipline issue, they knew that I was gonna… Deal with them discipline-wise for the action, but not who they were.

And I would call them when they were suspended from school to check in on them. When they came back, I would check in on them. And I think parents need to realize if their kids do something… you know, back when I was growing up, I mean, I had curfews, and if I violated that curfew, then some privileges were taken away. I knew my parents loved me.

And I say this all the time, the older I get, the smarter my parents became, you know? And I think that’s important. And I worry about that a little bit. And then, I just worry about social media. You know, one of the things right now, kids, I mean, they’re writing papers using social media, or AI, or whatever they want. And I know right now in schools that they even have programs that teachers, when kids turn in papers, they can see if it’s plagiarized and things of that nature. You know, and I worry about the fact that, you know, right now, if I could say, write me a speech, they can do it here in 30 seconds. But our kids, are they able to carry on conversations? You know, things like that. And I just saw something the other night on 60 minutes about robots carrying… gonna be able to do all this work, and things of that nature, and I… I think that was one of the things, and I know there’s people out there saying, boy, this virtual learning, virtual learning, but there’s something about social interactions.

And that was the thing that was missing during the pandemic, that, you know, you could do like we’re doing, but a lot of times, you know, when I do presentations, there’s times I do Zoom presentations.

I understand, I mean, more people can do it, they don’t have to travel, but for me, I want to be looking at the audience, because I can see how they’re reacting. You know, even when, you know, meetings, I like to have meetings where people are there. You can see body language, you can see eye contact, and things of that nature. And that’s what scares me, these kids, everything’s virtual, and you know, and since the pandemic, you see more people that are working remotely and things of that nature, and I mean, there’s some pluses with that, but there’s something to be said about interactions with people. That are directly, you know, involved.

And so… But that scares me a little bit.

But these kids are so much smarter. I mean, I look at things they’re doing in math, and the opportunity, they’re just smart, smart, smart, but how do you use it? And the other thing that I really see that’s positive, and I can remember having this conversation.

And Columbine was a high-achieving school, and the Jefferson County School District was very high-achieving, but our superintendent would say at the time, and I love this person, she was great, but… and she trusted me.

Because at times, I would just say, have you thought about this? She would say, we’re preparing all kids to be successful in college, and I said, not all kids go on to college.

And we gotta prepare all kids to be successful in the next phase of their life. And what I’m seeing now is back in the day, when I first started, you had technical schools, and it would be maybe auto mechanics, things of that nature. But now, there are programs in school where kids can go technical school for nursing. We have an aviation school, firefighting, and so these kids are realizing

They may not need that four-year degree, but there are other programs that they can do, and do extremely well. And so, I think we gotta prepare kids when they leave, not only with the academic things, but social skills, you know, things of that nature, and I think that’s the thing that’s so important.